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Post by Admin on Sept 21, 2010 21:49:03 GMT -8
The unfortunate part of all this is, that it often takes the loss of a life to learn what works and what doesn't work. In this case it was either A) an unsafe practice; B) Failure of someone to obey the track directions (corner worker in this case is Terry). IMO, Scott was doing what he was instructed to do by the corner worker as described in the rider meeting. The fault really lies with the person who did not listen to the track workers and disobeyed or did not see a flag. It happens, that is why people blow the checker a lot. Unfortunate, but not sure there is a better way than to let the person finish their lap. For me, that would mean a 4 min delay. For Eddie, a little over 2  |
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Post by me on Sept 21, 2010 21:54:10 GMT -8
Dale, I strongly disagree with you on this. First I never, ever been shown, a red flag (together with a checkered), at Fernely, or any other racetrack, because I missed a checkered flag, at some other station; until a couple of trackdays ago at RFR. It should be a black flag, if anything at all. Second; to red flag someone, on the fastest part of the track for a non-emergency reason, just create one. Because of such a misguided use, I now, look at the flag station on the Sunset straight multiple times, a giant distraction while I am going as fast as I can and late braking in the next corner. Then on turn 23 I squint and try to see if there is a checkered flat at Terry station, 'cause I don't want to get a red flag, if I go by, and I missed the previous one. Greg you assume that everyone want to do one more (victory) lap....That is your prerogative. I worked grid many times before, possibly more than any of you and this IS new. In the last few trackdays we had quite few riders not seeing the checkered on the back straight. Not a coincidence as, with only one other station showing it just isn't enough. Also keep in mind the accident happened to two: Eddie and Scott, very good, very safe and well seasoned "A" riders and NOT to a couple of squids....anyone care to explain that!? I just want to ride safely and have fun. They have a skeleton crew up there and because of it some issues are surfacing. Lance Keigwins always said at the meetings:" if you blow a checkered flag you are automatically in the next group session, if you are a "C" group and the next is "A" you are shit out of luck"
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Post by Admin on Sept 21, 2010 21:58:58 GMT -8
I too have missed the checkered back at 12. It is very hard to see and not exactly in your line of sight when you are looking for brake markers at the end of the straight (and bumpy torn up track). I got the red/checkered last month  I put up my hand, pulled WAY over into the run in, stopped, looked for a clear track and u-turned coming back up the hot pits....as instructed. In previous years they allowed you to go into the drag strip. I heard early this year that you could not do it as it is not owned by the track operators (don't know if that is true or not, just what I heard). |
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Post by me on Sept 21, 2010 22:04:30 GMT -8
I too have missed the checkered back at 12. It is very hard to see and not exactly in your line of sight when you are looking for brake markers at the end of the straight (and bumpy torn up track). I got the red/checkered last month I put up my hand, pulled WAY over into the run in, stopped, looked for a clear track and u-turned coming back up the hot pits....as instructed. In previous years they allowed you to go into the drag strip. I heard early this year that you could not do it as it is not owned by the track operators (don't know if that is true or not, just what I heard). What if in a moment of....who knows what you did not see another riders who missed the front straight checkered/red flag??!! You can see now why that is a misguided use of the red flag. Ared only flag would mean stop safely and wait, not turn around or anything else. |
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Post by Admin on Sept 21, 2010 22:07:48 GMT -8
I'm not disagreeing Alberto, or defending the practice. I am just describing what is put out at the rider's meeting. I think Greg is right (and you) in that the practice needs to be looked at. Doing u-turns on the front straight is not a good thing to do. It's obvious now.
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Post by Justin(o) on Sept 21, 2010 22:43:17 GMT -8
I wrote a few things, then reconsidered as more information became available. take home messages: I'm just really glad the boys sound ok. and "wow, justin can keep his mouth shut, after all" |
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Post by me on Sept 21, 2010 22:49:40 GMT -8
My two friends are ok just by chance....the bikes are totaled, and I can't explain it to myself why it all happened, but for.... (in the interest of political correctness and to avoid accusations, I refrain from finishing this sentence).
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dub
Committee Member 
Wiles
Posts: 809
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Post by dub on Sept 21, 2010 23:39:35 GMT -8
I don't have any additional input on this topic, beyond what has already been said.
However, I will say that I am confident that Greg, the rest of the track day committee and the staff at RFR are 100% committed to my, as well as every other riders', safety and will address this issue and, if they deem necessary, make any agreed upon changes in protocol to prevent a similar indecent from occurring in the future.
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Putz
Committee Member
Luke
Posts: 1,123
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Post by Putz on Sept 22, 2010 9:47:31 GMT -8
I don't have any additional input on this topic, beyond what has already been said. However, I will say that I am confident that Greg, the rest of the track day committee and the staff at RFR are 100% committed to my, as well as every other riders', safety and will address this issue and, if they deem necessary, make any agreed upon changes in protocol to prevent a similar indecent from occurring in the future. Well put. |
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Post by Gangplank on Sept 22, 2010 9:47:37 GMT -8
I am in 100% agreement with Dub.
I also am very certain that at the riders meetings I have been to Terry never said to make a U turn on the straight and come up the hot pits - UNLESS directed to do so by the tower on the track. I wasn't at this weekend so was not at the riders meeting & have no idea what was said.
As Greg said.... Red means stop, Checkered means your session is over. If you see both it means your session is over, you blew the checker and slow to a stop on the track and wait for instruction.
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Post by Justin(o) on Sept 22, 2010 10:45:34 GMT -8
Personally, I completely agree with Gangplank comments and observations, and would also like to reply to Dub's comment above as a member of the track committee.
Even without having any events schedule, please know that the track committee has been working on this since Sat evening. Safety concerns are on our minds constantly, and should always be our chief objective.
Greg/Oneup (Track Committee Chair) is totally obsessive about matters of safety and works with Erik (Yardsale) pulling from their prolific track knowledge. I contribute what I can along with the leadership of this club, who consistently offers input and suggestions to come up with innovative ways to solve problems.
I'm relieved none were injured of Saturday, and echo other sentiments about being able to learn from it.
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Post by me on Sept 22, 2010 11:03:59 GMT -8
I am in 100% agreement with Dub. I also am very certain that at the riders meetings I have been to Terry never said to make a U turn on the straight and come up the hot pits - UNLESS directed to do so by the tower on the track. I wasn't at this weekend so was not at the riders meeting & have no idea what was said. As Greg said.... Red means stop, Checkered means your session is over. If you see both it means your session is over, you blew the checker and slow to a stop on the track and wait for instruction. Most people, me included never seen the two flag together. Nor ever heard an explanation about them. It's easy to come to the conclusion you mentioned while sipping coffee, sitting at your desk. On the racetrack going at 100mph+ is a different deal, especially when things are not clear. (I have been there) Plus. let's say I get the confusing two flag combos, and I stop just short of turn two...what then; I seat there since I can't tell what the flagger want me to do because of distance? I go around again and exit? I wait until a instructor come and then we both u-turn back to the pit? Keep in mind, no instructions were given about this. Dale, you say you heard that before, what were they? Above all, just listen to what Eddie said (wrote on the SSA board about this). One more thing, the u-turn happened well beyond the red cones, on the drag strip so technically off track. Not looking for a scape goat, but I was there, and questioned the checkered/red flag thing practice, once before. It's clearly unsafe and flawed...not sure why you guys can't see it?? |
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Putz
Committee Member
Luke
Posts: 1,123
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Post by Putz on Sept 22, 2010 11:20:28 GMT -8
Not looking for a scape goat, but I was there, and questioned the checkered/red flag thing practice, once before. It's clearly unsafe and flawed...not sure why you guys can't see it?? I can't say I've ever heard this. It is something to look into. I see that as a safety issue. A red flag under any pretext should mean to come to a safe and controlled stop until directed by a corner worker. I know after coming to a stop the corner workers then have you turn around and come into the hot pits but I'd never want someone to do it on their own accord. Turning around on track without direction from a corner worker is asking for a situation exactly like this. Not everyone sees the red flag immediately and it is up to the flaggers to let everyone know when it is safe to proceed. I'll talk with Z2 and Keigwins and see what their take is. I see this as a huge safety issue that needs to be corrected. I do not ever want to get on track with anyone that might decide to turn around without being told it is safe to do so. If it is the norm then it needs to be changed for the safety of the riders. Maybe because I just read this thread thru start to finish today but I don't see why there is an argument going on. Everyone agrees there is a safety issue and that we all need to reevaluate procedures. I know I have had a couple of phone calls to the other board members about it already. |
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Post by Yard Sale on Sept 22, 2010 11:46:21 GMT -8
A red flag means only one thing, at all times, regardless of what other flags are displayed, or where it's displayed:
Signal with an arm or leg, slow, stop at the edge of the track, and wait for instructions from a cornerworker or monitor.
There are no other acceptable courses of action.
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dub
Committee Member
Wiles
Posts: 809
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Post by dub on Sept 22, 2010 11:51:12 GMT -8
...I don't see why there is an argument going on. Internet forums exist for two reasons: To share funny pictures of cats and to argue. I don't see any cats in this thread. |
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I put up my hand, pulled WAY over into the run in, stopped, looked for a clear track and u-turned coming back up the hot pits....as instructed. In previous years they allowed you to go into the drag strip. I heard early this year that you could not do it as it is not owned by the track operators (don't know if that is true or not, just what I heard).
