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Post by Oneup on Mar 2, 2011 11:36:14 GMT -8
The issue as I see it is that, Greg, you are stuck on a race mentality. Where every ounce and HP % counts. Are you afraid that Josh is going to lose at the track day because he didn't have that extra 0.7% of a HP. It all comes down to what you are trying to achieve. Good enough counts as a track day only rider. And if that man wants to play with it himself it is his right. You don't have the right opinion Greg, you just have one opinion. It isn't about getting the most hp to me, it is about getting it done right. The way I see it there are two mentalities, do it yourself or get it done right. When they are the same cost I don't understand why someone wouldn't want it done right. I don't believe it is opinion that anyone on this board except Zoran can do it correctly by themselves. Sorry if I offend anyone but there just isn't anyone here (except Zoran) that has enough experience to do it correctly themselves. A few people here may get close, but it won't be right. Something to keep in mind with my "race mentality": racing is expensive. Racers are cheap. We always look for what is the best bang for the buck. Every dollar most racers spend is on what will get them the best results for the dollar. Sometimes spending a little extra up front will save you money in the future. Buying things that you have to mess with yourself also detracts from actually getting better. If you are spending your time wondering if what you did actually helps your bike then you aren't working on getting better. The reason I do trackdays is to get better, not just to ride around in circles thinking of other things. But like Aaron said, just go with what you are comfortable with. Just don't try and tell me that it is better or saves you money, because I don't buy that for a second. |
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Post by Justin(o) on Mar 2, 2011 11:43:50 GMT -8
Buying things that you have to mess with yourself also detracts from actually getting better. If you are spending your time wondering if what you did actually helps your bike then you aren't working on getting better. I agree. You don't want to be preoccupied with trivial concerns, and not only in competition. It's safe to say that people have varied comfort/freak-out levels. Your thresholds are different than mine. Now that we've sorted all this out, can I borrow your worthless Bazzaz unit? |
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Post by Oneup on Mar 2, 2011 12:21:47 GMT -8
Now that we've sorted all this out, can I borrow your worthless Bazzaz unit? ;D ;D I'm not pulling it off the bike. My tuner likes them, and says they are useful once a baseline is established on the dyno, so I'll let him mess with it. |
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Post by Lj Harp on Mar 2, 2011 14:19:29 GMT -8
May I pitch in? I have one question. If you don't do it yourself then how will you ever know how to do it. Zoran was in the same place we all are he had to learn it at some point also. Well and now another question what is a bazzaz
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Post by Gangplank on Mar 2, 2011 15:24:41 GMT -8
The discussion is about the Bazzaz Z-AFM self mapping unit. Lots of info on the Bazzaz website. Bazzaz is a lot like the Dyno Jet/power commander line of products but maybe a bit more developed (depends on peoples opinions)
The idea was to borrow one... Turns out I found one for on WERA used for a great price.
If you want more info check the bazzaz.net site. Good info available in the FAQ section and they have a free rebuked you can sit in on and learn how it all works. Great stuff.
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Post by Oneup on Mar 2, 2011 15:35:57 GMT -8
May I pitch in? I have one question. If you don't do it yourself then how will you ever know how to do it. Zoran was in the same place we all are he had to learn it at some point also. Well and now another question what is a bazzaz Zoran has spent several decades working on bikes and learning to tune them. It is what he does for a living. He is a professional. He has learned as the bikes have been developed. Just so everyone knows, Zoran uses a dyno to tune bikes. He's done enough of them that he has a good baseline to start, but he takes his bikes to the dyno to fine tune them. I don't think he uses any self mapper at all. I only mentioned him because he is the only one that could post on this forum saying they could tune a bike themselves better than a trained professional and I would believe them. There is a couple other guys in Reno that know what they are doing but they don't post on this site. There is nothing wrong with learning to do it yourself, but the people that have learned have used the proper tools and been trained by people with more experience or have been part of the developement. Looking up info on a website and bypassing a dyno will not yield better results. Also keep in mind the people that can do it themselves use that skill to make money. They professionally tune other peoples bikes. They didn't spend years learning what they know so they could avoid paying someone else to do their work, most of them did it so they could do it for others and make money at it. |
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Post by Justin(o) on Mar 2, 2011 15:49:10 GMT -8
Cross Post OneupMay I pitch in? I have one question. If you don't do it yourself then how will you ever know how to do it. Zoran was in the same place we all are he had to learn it at some point also. Well and now another question what is a bazzaz I like your spirit, LJ. What Oneup is saying is that a self mapper is not a substitute for a professional tune, but that his professional tuner likes the self mapping ability of that unit. So, while a microwave oven CAN be utilized by an expert chef, it's unlikely that a microwave oven would be the chef's only tool. and furthermore, you'll be hard-pressed to find one accredited culinary school that trains students exclusively with microwaves. That said, I must emphasize that learning to cook with an EZ-Bake Oven can open a lot of doors, set you on a path to greatness, even international recognition. What were we talking about again?
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Post by Oneup on Mar 2, 2011 16:04:09 GMT -8
Cross Post OneupMay I pitch in? I have one question. If you don't do it yourself then how will you ever know how to do it. Zoran was in the same place we all are he had to learn it at some point also. Well and now another question what is a bazzaz I like your spirit, LJ. What Oneup is saying is that a self mapper is not a substitute for a professional tune, but that his professional tuner likes the self mapping ability of that unit. So, while a microwave oven CAN be utilized by an expert chef, it's unlikely that a microwave oven would be the chef's only tool. and furthermore, you'll be hard-pressed to find one accredited culinary school that trains students exclusively with microwaves. That said, I must emphasize that learning to cook with an EZ-Bake Oven can open a lot of doors, set you on a path to greatness, even international recognition. What were we talking about again? Pretty much. Going off that analogy my main point this thread has been if you want a five star restaurant meal you are going to have better luck going to a five star restaurant instead of trying to cook it yourself with a microwave. Especially if it's going to cost you the same amount. |
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Post by Qwik on Mar 2, 2011 17:20:31 GMT -8
They spent years on dyno's because thats all they had. This software and equipment has only recently become available/affordable for bikes thats why everyone has/will use a dyno as that was your only choice to tune a bike until now. Most people have negative feeling about thing they dont understand when they have been told or are accustomed to doing thing a certain way.
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Post by Justin(o) on Mar 2, 2011 17:23:53 GMT -8
Important to note that the OP's bike came with a bazzaz FI thing, and borrowing the Z-AFM unit would have been free. Considerably less than a dyno tune.
As 2wcp noted, this method would have made a few dyno runs a fiscally sound alternative because the Z-AFM unit can get the engine very close to ideal on it's own.
If I had the unit I would have done precisely the same thing as the OP, and to borrow someone's and accept what it recommends.
I don't really care if my air fuel ratio is at 12.6 or 14.2. It makes no difference to me. I'm sure someone will want to convince me why this is all very urgent.
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Post by Oneup on Mar 2, 2011 17:56:25 GMT -8
They spent years on dyno's because thats all they had. This software and equipment has only recently become available/affordable for bikes thats why everyone has/will use a dyno as that was your only choice to tune a bike until now. Most people have negative feeling about thing they dont understand when they have been told or are accustomed to doing thing a certain way. Perhaps, but there is a reason all pro teams still use a dyno. There is a reason MotoGP and WSBK not only use dyno's but most of them bring a dyno to the track with them even though they've had this technology for years. Most importantly there is a reason Bazzaz even states on their website that the best way to get the proper AFR's and best power curve is to use a dyno. My tuner doesn't have any negative feelings about them, he just prefers to use them the way they are meant to be used. Use a dyno to establish the best AFR's, then use the auto tuner to keep the bike at those preset AFR's. Another thing to keep in mind is that with bikes the power delivery is far more important than max hp. Most tuners will build maps that limit the hp and torque in certain areas to make the delivery as smooth as possible. If you can't use the horsepower effectively then there is no point in having it. Also some riders do better with different shaped power curves. Some like more mid range and some prefer the top end to be higher. None of this can be established without a dyno. No matter how much you think that 12.8-13.0 is the best AFR for power, it still doesn't bring into the equation what is providing the best power curve for both your bike and you as a rider. |
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Putz
Committee Member 
Luke
Posts: 1,123
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Post by Putz on Mar 2, 2011 18:18:09 GMT -8
The way I see it there are two mentalities, do it yourself or get it done right. When they are the same cost I don't understand why someone wouldn't want it done right. You so missed the point of this thread. Use a dyno to establish the best AFR's, then use the auto tuner to keep the bike at those preset AFR's. That is so not what the Z-AFM does, it is a self mapper not an auto-tuner. |
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Post by Oneup on Mar 2, 2011 18:36:23 GMT -8
The way I see it there are two mentalities, do it yourself or get it done right. When they are the same cost I don't understand why someone wouldn't want it done right. You so missed the point of this thread. Use a dyno to establish the best AFR's, then use the auto tuner to keep the bike at those preset AFR's. That is so not what the Z-AFM does, it is a self mapper not an auto-tuner. I didn't miss the point of this thread. The original point of this thread is that Josh wanted to be cheap and borrow someone else's self mapper. That is exactly how the Z-AFM works. You give it target AFR's and it builds a map to match the target AFR's you preset. You then decide whether the map it built is what you want and you can set the FI unit to use either all or part of the map. Without giving it a target it won't work. You can't get the best possible target without a dyno. |
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Post by Qwik on Mar 2, 2011 18:53:50 GMT -8
Please explain what you mean by best possible target AFR?
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Post by Oneup on Mar 2, 2011 19:10:19 GMT -8
Please explain what you mean by best possible target AFR? The best AFR for each specific rpm point at each specific throttle position. You build your map by adjusting the AFR for each rpm/throttle position on the dyno. Some of these points you will richen or lean out to make the curve as smooth and linear as you possibly can. After you build the map on the dyno the AFR's in the "matrix" that you came up with are the target AFR's. You input those AFR's into the Self Mapper and turn it on. When you ride the bike the self mapper will read what the actual AFR is and then build a recommended map to get the bike to run at the targeted AFR's. You then decide if you want to use the map that the tuner built. Basically, the best possible target AFR is the AFR that you come up with on the dyno to get the bike to have the power and torque curve that you are looking for. Bazzaz states on their website that in order to get the best possible results with their system you need to use a dyno and establish this baseline. |
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