Is this our first oil thread?

[Justin(o)]

Oct 5, 2010 12:56:49 GMT -8 Admin said:

i run that stuff I buy at McDonald's. It's got that special additive that makes you crave their fries...and will add 2 hp to your bike too.

Myron's sponsored already

[Gangplank]

The turn burgler....

[zipbyu]

Oct 5, 2010 12:26:00 GMT -8 Oneup said:

It's settled then. I'm switching to vegetable oil.

I thought Castrol is a type of vegetable oil.

I would take fresh motorcycle oil in place of anykind of brand. Fresh oil is good oil. I use the castrol semi-syn in the 750, motrex 10-60 full syn in the husky 450.

[Gangplank]

So rather than continue the humor & esoterical lecture on oil here is info from the manual: "Always select good quality engine oil. Use of SF/SG or SH/SJ in API with MA in JASO"

Looking at the label of the Rotella T6 bottle it is JASO-MA:


According to an AMSOIL dealer website: "All quality motorcycle specific oils should also carry the JASO Motorcycle Specifications, which are either the JASO-MA specification (no friction modifiers) or the JASO-MB specification (with friction modifiers). The JASO-MA rating specifies that no friction modifiers are used." i.e. if you have a wet clutch use the MA ttp://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/motorcycle_oil_technical_facts.htm#ixzz11YfmHr5b

If you want a pretty good explaination of oil basics and why JASO-MA is better than API take a look at this article: www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html

[Gangplank]

That article includes:

These standards also include a test specifically designed to measure the oil's effect on clutch lock-up, as well as heat stability and several other factors related to motorcycle engines. Our advice here is pretty simple: Read your manual, and if it calls for an API SG oil, use that. Don't substitute a higher API designation oil like SL, because it will contain less of some additives like phosphorus, and it may contain other additives that will yield higher fuel economy in a car but could cause slippage in your clutch. (More on that later.)

While it may not be the perfect answer, you can also be safe by selecting JASO-labeled oil, because you will know that it has passed a bank of tests developed by the motorcycle industry.

So my 07 GSXR 750 that I am getting says: Use of SF/SG or
SH/SJ in API with MA in JASO.

For weight - it says 10w-40. Now while people often say use what the manual says if you look at the chart in the manual right there is shows that 10-40 is good for temp ranges from -4 to >104 F. Since I don't plan to ride in any temps that low it is obvious looking at the chart that 20w-40 or 50 would do.

Why do I conclude that? Because I know that the first number in multigrade oil is the cold number. Meaning 10w-40 is designed to act like 10w when it is cold. 20w 20 weight and so on. This is accomplished by adding more fritction adjusting additive or modifyers to the oil. Pretty obvious to me that less of these riction fighting is better on a wet clutch but also when hot the oil acts as the higher number so 10w-40 is not thinner than 20w-40 when at operating temp. Only at cold startup lower than freezing temps. Not an issue for me on the track.

That said the wider the range of the additives the more quickly oil will break down and lose its viscosity capabilities (theoretically). So 20w-40 with a smaller range than 10w-40 will have less added modifyers and will breakdown less quickly. Therefore looking at your manual determine what weight oil is best targeted for the temp range you intend to ride in.

Why am I researching this? Because I want my motor to last and I am tired of spending money on oil far beyond what is necessary to protect the motor to get the most life out of it over years and years of track riding that I plan to do with this bike. So I'll look for 20w-40 or 15w-40 or 50 because I plan to ride in hotter not colder temps.

[Gangplank]

Part 2 of the Sportrider article provides a lot of info on Motorcycle oils and what is added:
www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index.html

Zinc and Phosporus are good additives:


Moly is genearlly considered bad:


calcium, boron and magnezium are acid neutralizers (good for motorcycles)


Yes, as people always claim moto oil contains more of these additives for motor longevity than automobile oil:


The article goes on to discuss heat aging and other oil qualities. One interesting thing that it notes is that if you have a downtime it is best to change your oil before storage. Fresh oil has less harmful stuff in it. Makes sense.

One of the other tests they ran was a viscosity loss test. Results of that test show what I was saying above about the wider range 5w-40 vs. 10w-40 does result in more oild breakdown:


The final conclusion however is that motorcycle oil is better than car oil, and that Synthetic is better than non-synthetic. Beyond that choices are up to you as to how much you want to spend for protection. LOL lots of research tonight for basically what Jlavalee said earlier. Not that I questioned his knowledge. I was just curious. :-)

[jlavallee]

Question away, the older I get the more I understand how little I know. I could pick at a few points in the Sport Rider article but in general, yes, the basic point is there. Like I said, on a race bike I would be trending toward the higher viscosity range oils in the manufacturers chart for the reasons you stated.

I will admit that being an R6 owner, this thread really makes me want to investigate the failures. I had no idea they were that common but I remember Andy lunching his but I believe he threw a rod. If anyone knows what changes Yamaha made to improve their system I'd love to know the details.

[Oneup]

Andy has blown 3 motors on that bike I believe. I was told the biggest difference from the 06/07 to the newer one is the oil pump. Mike Canfield (AMA mechanic) told me that one of the or bearings doesn't get enough oil to it and tends to fail. He told me that changing the oil often and running a higher oil level helped. He also told me it was imperative that the bikes fully heat up before being put on track. He said taking the bike out below 160 operating temperature was one of the worst thing you can do to an r6.

[zipbyu]

To me i see very little differance, the bike would see less of a difference. KEEP IT FRESH!

[rgmrts]

look at that the maxxum has the third highest rating in moly(bad) and thats the crap i didnt like!!! now i know why

[Justin(o)]

I knew a girl named Molly.
Cute girl, bad additive.
Stay away

[jlavallee]

Oct 6, 2010 5:48:41 GMT -8 Oneup said:

Andy has blown 3 motors on that bike I believe. I was told the biggest difference from the 06/07 to the newer one is the oil pump. Mike Canfield (AMA mechanic) told me that one of the or bearings doesn't get enough oil to it and tends to fail. He told me that changing the oil often and running a higher oil level helped. He also told me it was imperative that the bikes fully heat up before being put on track. He said taking the bike out below 160 operating temperature was one of the worst thing you can do to an r6.

Interesting, looking at the micro fiche it shows the same part number 2C0-13300-00-00 for both the 2006 and 2009 model. I wonder what the guys at Yamaha have done if anything.

I was not aware Andy lost three engines. Always fully heating up the bike before going hard is a good idea for any engine. His other two comments indicate:

Keep the oil level on the high side:
Assuming this is correct, this could mean a couple of things...
1) Something is being used in the oil or deposited in the oil so more oil volume helps. (unlikely given the minor volume change but could play in with changing oil issue)
2) The pick up is poorly designed and at lean angles it could suck air into the system. (most likely)
3) There is a lack of cooling with the oil, increased volume helps disperse heat. (unlikely)

Changing the oil more often:
Assuming this is correct, this could mean something is being used in the oil or deposited in the oil, the engine is on the limit for viscosity under load. As the viscosity drops, it cannot support the load so changing more often keeps you near the rating.

Interesting...

[Oneup]

Andy's first two engine failures were head issues. His last was a rod bearing. I know he runs a thinner head gasket with more compression and I think that may have been the cause of the first two failures. The last is the same issue I've seen on at least 7 bikes this year.

[Gangplank]

One of the interesting things I read in the sportrider article last night was that just because the oil temp is ok and the water temp is ok that does not mean that other parts of the engine are not overheading.

It noted that in parts of the engine oil is used to cool the engine and that some oils are better than others. Racing oils were noted to be particularly poor at longevity.

Also it noted that in real world dyno tests some racing oils did improve horsepower!! really? YES! racing oil can up HP by 2 to 3 HP but it will have a very short life span. Like one race or one trackday.

My guess is the failures in the R6's are due to parts not getting the proper cooling internally. Even though the oil temp and water telp are within the ok range the particular oil used may not have the cooling properties to keep other parts cool if they overheat.

[rgmrts]

the 03-05 yamaha yfz450's had an oiling issue though they and dealers deny it
and it had to do with the rod bearings it was an oil passage problem for oiling the bearing it wouls seize the rod to the crank
wonder if they corolate with the design team?
just a thought